Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) per l'India

[FAS]

ecco le suggestioni di un giornalista


REF: grandestrategy.com

Eurofighter Typhoon Wins Massive MMRCA Contract from India
01/13/2012
Meinhaj Hussain, m.hussain@grandestrategy.com




Bismillah-arrahman-arraheem. GrandeStrategy sources suggest that the Eurofighter Typhoon may in fact be the winner of the long delayed Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition. The MMRCA is India's largest single defense deal that seeks to purchase high-end combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The contract is estimated to be worth between 10-15 Billion USD for 126 or more combat aircraft. These aircraft will provide India with a credible boost in air combat capabilities significantly downgrading any advantage the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) may have clawed back over the last decade.


The contest has been essentially between the Eurofighter Typhoon built by a pan-European consortium which includes EADS, Alenia Aeronautica and BAE Systems, and the Rafale, its French equivalent built by Dassault. It is commonly believed that the Rafale has better air-to-ground, while the Typhoon enjoys superior air-to-air performance although both planes are closely matched. The competition was critical for Rafale because it has yet to secure an export order in the last 10 years. The loss of this competition to the Eurofighter consortium may possibly be fatal to the Rafale securing any major future international contracts.


The purchase will have a few significant ramifications to Pakistan, the premier air force of the Muslim world. Pakistan's JF-17 fighter is a capable multi-role aircraft but is not optimized for the kind of high-high (high altitude and high speed) BVR (Beyond Visual Range) combat that the future of air combat is increasingly leading towards and the kind of combat the Eurofighter Typhoon is purpose-built to perform. As a result this can provide a capability gap for PAF planners. This is likely to emphasize on more J-10s from China, an aircraft with superior air combat capabilities than the JF-17.


The Typhoon will also bring in the best platform for employing the MBDA Meteor, a new generation of BVR AAMs that can give an advantage to the IAF against both the PAF and the PLAAF (People's Liberation Army Air Force, or the Chinese air force). When combined with the high-high profile of the Typhoon, this can put lower kinetic energy fighters like the JF-17 at a disadvantage. The view of this author is to develop UCAVs customized for the Pakistani scenario and couple these with two-seater JF-17 Block II/III.


Another possible implication is that France may now be willing to trade weapons with Pakistan and some of the Rafale's technology may find itself to the JF-17. This is an unlikely possibility given the belligerence of Western powers presently towards Pakistan but the issue is not closed as France is known to have done such business in the past. The interest in such trade has multiple and important implications. Most importantly, France may be willing to sell weapons and avionics for an export oriented JF-17 where the customer is not Pakistan but a third country more amenable to the French. Countries like Egypt or Argentina for instance, may prefer a cheaper plane than the Rafale but want Western avionics and weapons. Pakistan may herself be interested in such parts as the excellent MMI (Man-Machine Interface), E/O (Electro/Optical) systems and EW (Electronic Warfare) systems, all of which are top grade subsystems of the Rafale.


A word of comfort is that the machines are highly expensive to buy and maintain and perhaps a degree more sophisticated than Indian engineers are used to handling. Coupled with a longer delivery timeline, Pakistan or China are unlikely to see these birds operational in significant number until at least 2016. Nevertheless, we have to hand it to the Indians that they have in all probability made the right choice.

[richelieu]

****
Altrettanto importante é che il governo indiano é anche vicino alla decisione per l'acquisto di sei MRTT (investimento di 2 bilioni di dollari). I contendenti sono l'A330 e l'II78.

Mi vorrete scusare se vado momentaneamente OT ..... ma su questo argomento c'è un recentissimo aggiornamento .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ls-366874/

[FAS]

REF:Economic Times
Decision on Multi Role Combat Aircraft deal in 10 days
NEW DELHI: The winner of the multi billion dollar deal to procure 126 combat planes for the Indian Air Force is
expected to be announced in the next ten days. European EADS Eurofighter and Desault Rafale are in the final
race for the Air Force global tender for the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA). The process to
determine the L1 (lowest bidder) is under progress and is expected to be decided in another ten days, top IAF
sources said here today. As per the defence procurement procedure, the lowest bidder is considered to be the
winner of the contract. The two European firms were competing with American companies Lockheed Martin and
Boeing , Russian MiG corporation and Swedish Saab, for the tender. But apart from Eurofighter and Desault, the
rest were evicted from the tender by the Defence Ministry after field evaluation trials. On November 4 last year,
Defence ministry had opened the commercial bid of the two firms left in the race and since then has been busy in
determining the lowest bidder. The Eurofighter bid is backed by four partner nations including Germany, Spain,
Italy and the United Kingdom while the Desault Rafale is backed by the French Government . Asked about the
army plans to raise aviation brigades including attack helicopters at corps level, the Air Force sources said, this
would be a very costly proposition as a lot of money would be required to raise such brigades. On January 12,
Army Chief General V K Singh had said that the force is planning to raise Aviation Brigade at all its thirteen corps.

[MarcoGT]

Incrociamo le dita...

[richelieu]

Ha vinto il "Rafale" ?

Secondo il blog "The Aviationist" di David Cenciotti .....

http://theaviationist.com/2012/01/31/mmrca-rafale/

..... che cita il sito "StratPost" .....

http://www.stratpost.com/rafale-wins-mmrca-2

..... il caccia francese avrebbe vinto la competizione MMRCA .....

[richelieu]

"Libération" .....

http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01012 ... s-a-l-inde

[richelieu]

Ed ecco "Ares" (AW&ST) ..... che titola però ..... "India Declares Rafale 'Lowest Bidder' In Fighter Contest" .....

http://goo.gl/eOeew

[MatteF88]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 700801.cms

Direi che è ufficiale..a meno di clamorose sorprese

[richelieu]

Direi che è ufficiale..a meno di clamorose sorprese

Che, temo, non ci saranno ..... ormai se ne parla dappertutto .....

Ora anche "Flightglobal.com", buon ultimo, però nel blog "The DEW Line" ..... non nelle "News" .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... -bidd.html

[MarcoGT]

[richelieu]

Ora tocca ad "Aviation Week & Space Technology" .....

http://goo.gl/VwGX6

[JT8D]

Comunicato Stampa di Dassault Aviation:

"Rafale selected to equip the Indian Air Force

Saint-Cloud (France), January 31, 2012- Following the announcement of the final selection of the Rafale in the frame of the MMRCA program, Dassault Aviation and its partners are honored and grateful to the Indian Government and the people of India to be given the opportunity to extend their long-lasting cooperation.
Dassault Aviation and its partners reiterate their commitment to meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force and underline their pride in contributing to India’s defence for over half a century."

Paolo

[richelieu]

La posizione di Cassidian .....

EADS Cassidian responds to India's Typhoon rejection 

By: Craig Hoyle (London) - 11 hours ago

Source:

EADS company Cassidian has voiced its disappointment after the Eurofighter Typhoon's defeat in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) competition, but appears to have accepted New Delhi's choice of Dassault's Rafale.

"India has taken the decision to select our competitor, although this is not yet a contract signature and the negotiations are still ahead," Cassidian said. "We are disappointed. However, we respect the decision of the Indian Ministry of Defence," it added.

Dassault officials were informed on 31 January that their Rafale bid had been judged the lowest-priced compliant proposal in a two-way battle with the Typhoon. The announcement provided a major boost for the French manufacturer, which has long sought a launch export buyer for its "omnirole" combat aircraft. Exclusive negotiations between the Rafale team and the Indian defence ministry for the planned 126-aircraft deal are expected to take place over the coming months.

"Based on the Indian government feedback we will now carefully analyse and examine this situation, together with our European partner companies and their respective companies," said Cassidian.

The Indian decision represents the third disappointment for the Eurofighter team in a little over a month, with the Typhoon having also been rejected in competitions in Japan and Switzerland during December. The aircraft lost out along with the Rafale to the Lockheed Martin F-35 and Saab Gripen NG, respectively.

Prospects for further sales of the Typhoon exist in countries including Malaysia, Oman, Qatar, South Korea and the United Arab Emirates. Previous export buyers include Austria and Saudi Arabia, with Vienna having acquired 15 examples and Riyadh having so far fielded 24 from a 72-aircraft deal.

[MatteF88]

Non so quanto sia in-topic..ma il typhoon è stato proposto col nuovo radar CAESAR? A che punto sono con lo sviluppo del radar?

[richelieu]

Non so quanto sia in-topic..ma il typhoon è stato proposto col nuovo radar CAESAR?
A che punto sono con lo sviluppo del radar?

Ecco quanto scriveva in merito, meno di un anno fa, "Flight International" .....

PARIS: Eurofighter to get operational AESA radar

By: Craig Hoyle (Paris) - 01:00 22 Jun 2011

Source:

Europe’s Typhoon fighter will be available with an operational active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar from 2015, the Eurofighter consortium has announced.

“After one year of industry funding, the Eurofighter and Euroradar consortia have received renewed strong support from the partner nations and have agreed to continue the full scale development programme,” it announced at the Paris air show. Dubbed Captor-E, the developmental sensor will meet an entry into service target of 2015, it added.

The AESA development will introduce “increased detection and tracking ranges, advanced air-to-surface capability and enhanced electronic protection measures,” Eurofighter said. The active array will be integrated with the back-end of the Typhoon’s current mechanically-scanned Captor-M via a repositionable “swashplate”.

In addition to potentially entering use with Eurofighters flown by Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK, the Captor-E could be a key element in the nations’ export campaigns to sell the Typhoon to additional operators. The type is currently in a two-way battle with the Dassault Rafale for India’s at-least 126-unit medium multi-role combat aircraft contract.

“The new radar will offer customers the freedom to retrofit their existing Typhoons when required,” Eurofighter said. “Significant growth potential” will also allow operators to tailor the sensor to “meet their individual operational requirements”, it said.

Full-scale development activities were launched in July 2010 by the Euroradar consortium, which is led by Selex Galileo.

Inoltre ..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroradar_CAPTOR

[richelieu]

Tornando all'India .....
..... sembra che la strada per la definitiva acquisizione del "Rafale" sarà alquanto lunga, dal momento che si prospettano ulteriori e complicate trattative .....

Hard negotiations lie ahead for Dassault after Rafale's Indian selection 

By: Greg Waldron (Singapore) - 2 hours ago

Source:

With its attainment of "L1 vendor" status in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest for 126 fighters, the Dassault Rafale is one step closer to securing its first overseas deal, but the road to a final agreement is still long.

Dassault on 31 January confirmed that the Rafale had been selected ahead of the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Indian defence ministry, however, told Flightglobal that it has yet to make a formal announcement of the company's L1 status, and was uncertain about the timeframe for this. "Nothing is official yet," a defence ministry source said.

Assuming the formal granting of L1 status, final negotiations between Dassault and the Indian government's Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) could take between six months and one year, said an industry source familiar with Indian defence procurement policy.

The process can be a tortuous one. According to defence ministry tender guidelines, a CNC should be comprised of individuals representing the stakeholders involved in an acquisition. In the case of MMRCA, the source believes the Indian air force, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and other key parties will be represented.

The CNC will conduct a two-stage negotiation. The first will deal with details such as contract language and deliverables, and the second with pricing.

On clearing the CNC, the contract will need the approval of the Defence Acquisition Council and India's finance ministry. Finally, the package will go before India's Cabinet Committee on Security, which will give the final sign-off.

"The L1 price is not necessarily the price you will win with," said the source. "There will be multiple stakeholders involved in the decision and negotiations."

Industry observers estimate the value of the MMRCA deal at between $10 billion and $20 billion - India's largest foreign arms purchase. Under the terms of the award, 18 aircraft will be delivered in a flyaway condition, with 108 to be built under licence by HAL.

Although the Rafale has struggled in late-stage negotiations in Brazil and the United Arab Emirates, recent French wins on the subcontinent bode well for the successful conclusion of Dassault's MMRCA campaign.

In July 2011, Dassault won a long-awaited $2.2 billion deal to upgrade the Indian air force's Mirage 2000H fighters to the 2000-9 standard. In early January, European firm MBDA confirmed a deal to equip the modified aircraft with Mica air-to-air missiles, although an official contract has yet to be signed.

[richelieu]

Il disappunto dei Britannici ..... che, lasciano intendere, si batteranno .....

Fonte: Ares - A Defense Technology Blog (AW&ST)

London's MMRCA Fall Out

Posted by Robert Wall at 2/1/2012 8:56 AM CST

To no surprise, the decision by India to name the Dassault Aviation Rafale as the lowest cost bidder in its MMRCA fighter competition over the Eurofighter Typhoon is not going down well in London.

Although Germany led the Indian Eurofighter campaign, the disappointment among British political, military and industrial players is palpable. Speaking in the House of Commons today, David Davis, a conservative MP, expressed his dismay at the outcome particularly “given the fact that we give many many times more aid to India than France ever did.”

David Cameron, who lobbied for Eurofighter along with German chancellor Angela Merkel concedes that “the decision is obviously disappointing.”

However, he's holding out hope. “They have not yet awarded the contract,” he says, adding that "I will do everything I can, as I have already, to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon because I think it is such a good aircraft."

He tries to assure Davis that job losses in the U.K. are not expected as a result.

As to competitive landscape, Cameron says Typhoon is “a superb aircraft with far better capabilities than Rafale" (or Rafael as Cameron calls it).

Il link ..... http://goo.gl/Cc7ys

[SuperMau]

Richelieu,

ho fatto un po' un giro d'orizzonte riguardo questa gara, e ti dico come la penso io.

SE alla fine sara’ il Rafale a portarla a casa, sara’ per loro un bagno di sangue, comunque la si veda.
Si, e’ vero, hanno vinto la gara di livello L1, che alla fine (pensandola all’indiana) per loro significa che il Rafale ha il prezzo piu’ basso….

MA

Ancora devono decidere gli SCONTI sul prezzo L1, vedere quanto altro grasso serve per ungere le ruote di tutto l’apparato militare, le line di credito per pagarlo a babbo morto, l trasferimento di tecnologia…..alla fine gli indiani vogliono un macchina (a questo punto qualsiasi, mica gli frega di quanto performante debba essere) quasi gratis.
Siccome I francesi sono alla canna del gas, pur di piazzarlo all’estero sono ben contenti di farsi inc…..alla stragrande

Tutto qui il problema. A questo livello, non so quanto interessante possa essere per il Typhoon rimettersi in gioco. Per cosa? Per regalare una macchina 10 volte meglio del Rafale agli indiani, e pure lasciargliela produrre in loco???? E noi (europei) cosa portiamo a casa??

E te lo dico da interessato della cosa, visto quel pochino di EFA a cui anche noi partecipiamo.

Not in a million years, in my opinion

Ciao
M.

[MarcoGT]

Ho la stessa opinione di SuperMau.

IMHO i francesi si sono piegati pur di portare a casa la commessa, ed ora dovranno piegarsi ancora di piu'; non parlo solo a livello economico, ma anche a livello di transfer di tecnologia; credo che il consorzio EF, ma soprattutto NETMA sia molto piu' restio al trasferimento che vogliono gli indiani.

[giragyro]

a io avviso è un grosso errore sottovalutare le potenzialità del mercato indiano . I francesi hanno messo ben più di un piede nello stipite della porta hindi ed in un'ottica di medio periodo la mossa si rivelerà vincente sotto vari punti di vista .

[MatteF88]

Non c'entra col typhoon ma con l'india e l'Italia sí:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... th%20Italy

Il ministero della difesa indiano ha aperto un inchiesta per corruzione riguardo alla vendita degli EH-101..


Pardon: AW-101

[richelieu]

"Qualcuno", in Italia, ci ha messo del suo .....

Reports in Italian daily newspaper la Repubblica suggest prosecutors have started checking into allegations of corruption against state-backed major defense contractor Finmeccanica’s dealings, including the 35.46 billion rupee ($720 million) contract with India.

e "qualcun altro", in India, ne è stato ben felice e, data la particolare situazione, ha preso la palla al balzo e ..... ha buttato il tutto nel calderone .....

[richelieu]

Tanto per continuare l'OT .....

..... Finmeccanica e AW smentiscono .....

Finmeccanica, AgustaWestland dismiss India reports 

By: Greg Waldron (Singapore - 5 hours ago)

Source:

Finmeccanica has stated that helicopter unit AgustaWestland was not involved in any irregularity concerning the supply of helicopters in India, following Indian media reports of a probe into a 2010 helicopter deal.

In regard to the reports, Finmeccanica issued this statement: "No notice related to the purported investigations has been served to companies and officers of the Finmeccanica Group neither in Italy, nor in India."

AgustaWestland also issued a statement on the matter, saying that it "firmly excludes any behaviour [that is] non-compliant with its code of ethics".

The statements follow a series of reports in Indian media that suggest Indian authorities have launched a probe into a €560 million ($754 million) contract awarded to AgustaWestland in 2010 to supply India with 12 AW101 helicopters for use in the VIP transport role.

When contacted by Flightglobal, India's Ministry of Defence was unable to comment on the matter.

[FAS]

piuttosto...
Dassault & BAES stanno studiando un caccia europeo di 5a generazione
alcune aziende europee sono state invitate a prendere parte dello studio preliminare

lo studio della piattaforma sará sponsorizata completamente dall'industria

[richelieu]

Alla ricerca di (eventuali) irregolarità .....

Defence minister A.K. Antony has ordered his ministry to probe allegations of irregularities and manipulation of the evaluation process while picking the French company Dassault for the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft worth about Rs. 50,000 crore.

Fonti .....
http://www.asianage.com/india/antony-te ... e-deal-370

http://www.asianage.com/india/td-mp-why ... rafale-443

[MarcoGT]

Eurofighter could still win MMRCA deal, says Cassidian boss

Ref: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ss-370281/

Cassidian has not given up hope of a Eurofighter win in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest, despite the consortium holding "L2" vendor status behind the Dassault Rafale, says company chief executive Stefan Zoller.

"India is a campaign that is still running," Zoller says, pointing to an investigation into the nation's selection process being conducted by the government in New Delhi.

Speaking during a financial briefing at the company's Unterschleissheim headquarters near Munich on 2 April, Zoller said: "We will see to what conclusion the Indian government will come."

A consequence of India having awarded L1 status to Dassault has been what Zoller describes as "more advanced discussions with our Eurofighter customers on how much faster we can integrate the additional capacity of the aircraft". This includes planned enhancements such as an active electronically scanned array radar, additional weapons and new reconnaissance and targeting systems.

"There is now far more willingness from the customers to converge and go ahead on those," he said.

The Eurofighter consortium had an exhibit at the 29 March-1 April Defexpo India show in New Delhi in support of its continued pursuit of the 126-aircraft MMRCA deal.

Zoller also disclosed the value of Cassidian's stake in a new five-year support contract signed by the four Eurofighter partner nations on 30 March.

Its €840 million ($1.1 billion) deal will cover the provision of in-service support to the air forces of Germany and Spain.

Alenia Aermacchi and BAE Systems last week valued their parts of the deal as worth a combined $1.38 billion.

[SuperMau]

Mah....il fatto che ci siano il ballo 120 macchine fa gola a tutti, ma visto che si parla di India, io lascerei perdere e mi concentrerei su un sacco di altre gare piu' piccole ma molto, molto piu' strategiche ( e anche meno casiniste), tipo Singapore, Indonesia, Corea.....

Piu' riguardo il programma indiano, piu' secondo me e' un tirarsi la zappa sui piedi. L''esempio ce l'abbiamo sotto gli occhi tutti i giorni con i Maro' della San Marco...

Ciao
M.

[MarcoGT]

Beh ma credo che comunque Cassidian lavori nel frattempo anche con altri possibili customers...

[richelieu]

L''esempio ce l'abbiamo sotto gli occhi tutti i giorni con i Maro' della San Marco...

Il che la dice tutta sull'affidabilità dell "Grande Nazione Indiana" .....

Quanto alla notizia riportata da "Flight" ..... che ne pensa il nostro FAS ?

[richelieu]

Ma è stato fatto tutto con trasparenza ?

Less than a month after the Rafale got the nod, the defense minister received a letter from M. V. Mysura Reddy, a member of the Indian parliament’s standing committee on defense, asking for an inquiry into the selection process.

Le cose, a quanto pare, andranno ancora per le lunghe e, chissà, potrebbero anche esserci delle sorprese .....

Fonte ..... AW&ST ..... http://goo.gl/28mpC

[SuperMau]

Richelieu!
Ti stavo giusto pensando a riguardo. DIfatti stavo leggendo anch'io un paio di articoli a riguardo stamattina.

E tutto si riassume alla fine in una sola linea:

"Such is India’s idiosyncratic procurement system that, in the run-up to the award of the $12 billion Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program, the joke was that the only thing worse than losing would be winning. For Dassault, that reality is not that far off."

Alla fine, come ho gia' detto in tempi non sospetti, e' stato molto meglio per l"EFA perderla questa gara...solo rogne di prima grandezza...

Ciao
M.

[FAS]

L''esempio ce l'abbiamo sotto gli occhi tutti i giorni con i Maro' della San Marco...

Il che la dice tutta sull'affidabilità dell "Grande Nazione Indiana" .....

Quanto alla notizia riportata da "Flight" ..... che ne pensa il nostro FAS ?

Acqua passata, bisogna concentrarsi su altri potenziali clienti e sulle nazioni del consorzio.

[ELTAR]

Alla fine, come ho gia' detto in tempi non sospetti, e' stato molto meglio per l"EFA perderla questa gara...solo rogne di prima grandezza...

Infatti il consorzio Eurofighter è contentissimo di averla persa questa gara... Non hanno emesso nemmeno un ricorso, nota di disappunto, commento ecc.!!!

Acqua passata, bisogna concentrarsi su altri potenziali clienti e sulle nazioni del consorzio.

Sembra che i potenziali clienti stiano scappando. Le richieste sembrano ( sembrano) più che altro rientrare nel teorema del mercanteggiare mediorientale ( a favore di qualcos'altro) più che in un intento serio. Senza contare poi di un effetto domino ( e qui si riallaccia il concorso in India).
E le core nations sono le prime a sfavorire il proggetto, in primis l'Italia con il programma F-35. Non so, ma non implementando gli optional, AESA, TVC, Meteor e forse molto ancora, il velivolo risulta meno competitivo di quello che potrebbe essere realmente e favorire in modo significativo la concorrenza, anche con vecchie riedizioni super aggiornate, relativamente più economiche o addirittura con formule tipo leasing elaborate proprio dall'AMI ( F-16ADF) allettanti per nazioni non propriamente benestanti ( Romania e Croazia).

[FAS]

E le core nations sono le prime a sfavorire il proggetto, in primis l'Italia con il programma F-35. Non so, ma non implementando gli optional, AESA, TVC, Meteor e forse molto ancora, il velivolo risulta meno competitivo di quello che potrebbe essere realmente e favorire in modo significativo la concorrenza, anche con vecchie riedizioni super aggiornate, relativamente più economiche o addirittura con formule tipo leasing elaborate proprio dall'AMI ( F-16ADF) allettanti per nazioni non propriamente benestanti ( Romania e Croazia).

Il Meteor é ongoing
ma le altre capacitá e clearance sono state richieste dagli users ma non approvate dalle nazioni.

L'industria non é la caritas. Molte cose sono state autofinanziate ma non si puó coprie tutta la road map

Comunque si dorme......

[richelieu]

L'industria indiana investe .....

HAL to invest in MMRCA production facilities .....

Fonte ..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-372826/